About this episode
What if the conflict you've been avoiding is costing you more than the conversation itself? In this episode of Uncover the Human, hosts Alex Cullimore and Cristina Amigoni dig into why conflict feels so loaded — and why that fear is often worse than the conflict itself. From the tendency to weight negative experiences more heavily than positive ones, to the hidden costs of saying "yes" when you mean "no," they unpack the psychology behind avoidance and challenge listeners to flip the script: instead of asking "what happens if I speak up?", ask "what happens if I don't?"
Drawing on real stories — including Cristina's memorable moment of telling her boss's boss "no" at 10 p.m. and watching jaws drop — the episode makes the case that conflict isn't something that happens to us, but a muscle we can learn to use. The more we build a "data bucket" of conversations that didn't go as badly as feared, the easier it becomes to step into the next one. Whether you're conflict-avoidant or just looking for tools to navigate hard conversations more skillfully, this episode offers a grounded, relatable starting point.
Transcript
Why Conflict Is Inevitable
SPEAKER_00
We are built on a lot of our past experiences. The thing is, the same way you can weight some experiences over others, we tend to, by default, weight negative experiences more. Welcome back to this episode of Uncover the Human. Today it's just Christine and I, and we are here to talk about conflict.
SPEAKER_02
Because we live in such a peaceful time right now everywhere around us that it's not something that's coming up at all.
SPEAKER_00
I know that nobody has this happening anywhere in their lives. So we thought we'd be able to do that. Internally or externally. Prepare yourself for one day when it's not peaceful and calm like it is now.
SPEAKER_02
Well, where do we start?
SPEAKER_00
First of all, why is conflict important? Open-ended question. Why is it?
SPEAKER_02
Why does conflict exist? And did Plato or Socrates write a book about whether why conflict exists? Maybe we can dig back into that.
SPEAKER_00
It's like something a philosophy major would know, and I don't remember that.
SPEAKER_02
And I was a major, but I didn't pay attention.
SPEAKER_00
What do you think? I did the reading?
SPEAKER_02
Or maybe I avoided conflict, so I just skipped that chapter.
SPEAKER_00
This is gonna conflict with my mind if I read this. So yeah, I think that one thing to think about is the fact it's a quote that we've we've referred to a couple of times, but one that I I enjoy, and I don't actually know who said it, but it's been like if two people agree on everything, at least one of them is lying.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. I would say probably both of them are lying internally. The other one is lying too.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. So what does that mean about conflict? It means that we all have kind of our individual preferences, thoughts, ideas, experiences, and everything that we bring into every interaction we ever have. And so that means that we have a totally unique fingerprints. It's going to be a little bit different than everybody else. So if there's not some amount of disagreement/slash quote unquote conflict in that, then somebody is lying about it. Our total authentic selves are going to be as unique as our fingerprint. So conflict is essentially inevitable in that way. Everybody's a little bit different.
SPEAKER_02
Indeed. And also the interesting part about conflict is that it's inevitable. It's all the time, internally and externally, whether we label it conflict or not, we're in experiencing it, some some form of it all the time. Unless we're lying all the time. And then internally we're experiencing the conflict. Our own consciousness is not keeping up with the mind trying to lie to itself. But what's interesting is that there's such a big heavy weight, even on the in the word of conflict. And so there's a lot of just emotions-driven reactions around it. Avoidance is a big one, almost expectation that there will be negative consequences to being in conflict. And so that's where I think a lot of the reactions, the way we show up, the lying, there's no conflict, one person is lying. I think that's where it comes in because we have this like pre-script, pre-story of like, oh my God, it's gonna be so bad if we let that out. And so it's constantly like just jamming this like genie in the bottle and like keeping it
When Disagreement Feels Like Danger
SPEAKER_02
there as much as possible.
SPEAKER_00
I agree with that. I think that we have so much modeling of how conflict has happened for us or happened to us that we have a backlog of experiences that tells us to be pretty cautious when it comes to stepping into conflict, which is an interesting point. Then we should define conflict because conflict is really, I think we almost exclusively think of conflict in that feeling of discomfort. Because really, you could have any conversation, you could have a quote-unquote disagreement, you could have a debate with a with a close friend where you have very different viewpoints, and it could actually not feel like conflict. It could feel like just a conversation. So conflict really ends up, I think, having that emotional charge almost by definition, because we think of conflict only in the times that are difficult, the things that are emotionally charged, the things that we don't feel comfortable approaching.
SPEAKER_02
I like that. Actually, I thought about it. The way you said it made me realize that we put so much emotion into conflict. It's almost like conflict is the emotion of what we expect to happen if there may be disagreement. You may say no to something, or you may say yes to something. And so it's the emotional charged part. It's because, like you said, like we could have a conversation where we don't agree and we may not label it conflict, but the conflict is like, oh, like if I say no, there's gonna be a conflict, so I better say yes.
SPEAKER_00
Or I feel like I can't say anything, or I feel like whatever, whatever the other options are. It's it's I have to agree, or oh man, I better gear up for a real fight because this is gonna be a knockdown, drag down, let's get through this. You know, it's gonna be gonna be brutal. And it's not to say there aren't very emotionally charged conversations or that they shouldn't be. It's just that I think is where we end up defining conflict mostly in in our minds, is the thing that we are basically procrastinating on because we're worried about the emotional reaction of it, both internally and externally.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. We're we're worried about the the guilt, the fear, the disappointment, the shame, you know, like all those emotions that we try to avoid that we're gonna experience anyway. Because if we don't experience it because of the actual conversation, the actual interaction, we experience it internally. And also they're all emotions that we may not experience at all. When
The Fear Behind Saying No
SPEAKER_02
I was thinking about the topic of conflict this morning before we started recording, and I thought about how we have that expectation about saying no. How saying no, it's like, oh, that's gonna turn into conflict. So I better say yes all the time. Like I said, like I better be lying and say yes when I really want to say no because of the conflict that could arise that I don't even know if it is. We don't have a crystal ball, we don't even know if it's gonna happen or not, but we make the assumption that it probably will, and so we say yes, or we say I don't know, whatever. We avoid, or we give silence. But like saying no is I think it's one of the most common ways to keep the conflict, the potential conflict, the genie in the bottle. We don't want to do that because for many, many reasons. I was thinking about this morning this example, and it came up because one of our clients recently wrote a recommendation on my LinkedIn, and he actually pointed out how I can't remember the words, but they're actually perfect, and I wish I had read them. But he pointed out how I welcome conflict directly, and I just go into it. And the funny thing is that I can't think of a single time in our interaction with our clients where I would actually classify as conflict that I welcomed and walked into. But that's what made me realize I'm like, oh wow, like we we all have our own idea of what a conflict situation is. And I can't think of a single one for this specific interaction. But then
Telling The Owner No At Night
SPEAKER_02
I thought about this um when I was 20, this other example, there's other story when I was 20. I was in my summer work camp, and I was program director for a leadership program for teens.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, it's working at a summer camp, not a summer work camp. It sounds like you were a prisoner.
unknown
No, no.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, working, yeah, sorry. Working at a summer camp with kids. Not a concentration camp. Summer camp for kids. That was my work for the summer. So I was organizing the this leadership training program for older teens, and we had, you know, different specialists that had to run the activities. And the owner of the organization, very big organization, I sort of knew him, had met him, you know, he sort of knew me. We didn't have a close relationship at that point, but an interaction. But he also ran a special leadership program for college-age students that happened at any point in the summer. And he was used to just coming in and say, like, hey, I'm gonna take this specialist and that pet specialist and that specialist, and then the rest of the the camp, which had like 200 kids, would have to kind of scramble to fill the holes because this usually didn't happen in a in an organized, advanced notice way. And so this summer, this particular summer, one of my first jobs, my first sort of real in quotes, real job, Roger, wonderful man. Roger called. It was like 10 o'clock at night, called and was like, Hey Christina, I'm gonna need Paul, your climbing specialist, tomorrow, all day. This is 10 o'clock at night. And my answer was no. Paul is committed in like with five different groups tomorrow, and there's no way at 10 o'clock at night I can figure out how to rework all the groups to do something else. So, no. We can look at maybe Paul the next day or the following day or in a couple of days, but let's look at what you're trying to do with your group of 20 versus the group of 200 over here, and let's figure out where we can spare Paul or move him around and other specialists and what you need so that we have an advanced understanding of what you need and we can work around it. So and that was fine. You know, he was like, Yep, got it. And I'm like, Okay, like what else can you do tomorrow? I was like, Oh, we'll do something else, and then if you can spare Paul on Wednesday, that that works great. I'm like, awesome. I put the phone down and I have these like four, I think it was like three or four other men around me who have worked for this organization for many, many years, are older than me, you know, from the my director to the business director to the travel director to somebody else, and their jaw just like down to the floor. I look at them and they're all silent and they're like, What did you do? And I'm like, I don't know, what did I do? And they said, like, you said no to Roger. Nobody says no to Roger. And I'm like, Why not? I'm like, because he's the owner of the company. Whatever Roger asks, Roger gets. And I'm like, but this inconveniences 200 kids and 80 staff members at 10 o'clock at night. I'm like, it doesn't make any sense to not say no. And they're like, but that doesn't happen. And I'm like, okay. And they're like, what happened? I'm like, he said okay. And like, he said okay? Yes. I explained the problem. I've given the potential solution so that we can work this out for the next two weeks. And he was okay. And the funny thing is that after that, Roger definitely knew who I was. He came to me every single time he had a request. And whenever he started running this program in Spain instead of Switzerland, he used to call me in May every single year. He says, like, are you coming to Spain? Are you coming to Spain? Are you gonna please please come to Spain? So, whatever catastrophe people had in their heads about saying no to Roger causes this never happened.
SPEAKER_00
Is in fact actually much better.
SPEAKER_02
Yes, it was much better for everybody. But there was like this idea of like you can't say no because then it's gonna cause conflict and we don't know what the consequences are.
SPEAKER_00
This is something
Status And Power In Workplace Conflict
SPEAKER_00
I see in the workplace a lot, and we've seen multiple times. I mean, I think it comes from a lot of conditioning from school to parenting to workplace. Like there's this feeling that if somebody has the quote unquote power in the room, like they basically you can't have conflict with them. They just have something they say, and you better figure out how to like make it happen. And there are certainly lots of, I'll call them bosses, not leaders, that have done that, that I've watched do that that will just kind of demand that. Like, well, I've said this, that's what should happen. And we get this uh feeling like, oh, I can't say no to things because they're we're constantly kind of evaluating the power dynamic and deciding, oh, well, then I that means I can't say no, because we've had two, even if we have somebody who's open to it, like your your boss was open to it, but people were used to not challenging that, used to feeling like, oh, if it's a boss, we just do whatever. And so that we we just it says jump, we jump, and that's it. And it doesn't matter if your head's right below a flame, whatever it is. It's you just jump. It's so I think ingrains that people don't feel like they can push back against that. And humans are very, very aware of like status and social status and what the second we associate that to the ability to have conflict. And we've seen this in the workplace too, when there's like peers have a really hard time having conflict. Then there's a oh, well, whoever wins this kind of ends up having a little bit of power over it or feels like there's a shift in the dynamic and suddenly there is way more at stake. So it's better not to even just question this, and it's so much harder to step into because it's ambiguous who will have the say. And what if you lose, and whatever else. Uh uh all of these thoughts tend to pop into our heads because we're so status driven as a species. And it's an understandable just reflex because that's how we are and we should be aware of it, but it doesn't mean that we should live our lives exclusively at the fear of that.
SPEAKER_02
Exactly. There's not to say, like, use this, as you said, like, yes, there's probably a conditioning and experiences that we all carry where it did go badly for us when we said no. It did go badly when we spoke up, it did go badly when we didn't agree. And so we carry that as like I don't want to have that experience again. I don't want to have that emotion again, I don't want to go down that path again. So it's not to say that every single time you say no, it turns out to be, you know, a wonderful thing and a wonderful memory that you can talk about on a podcast. And again, like what does it cost to avoid even saying no or asking, or whatever the other avoidance and ways that we relate to conflict are, because we're afraid of what could maybe possibly happen if it happens exactly how it happened with somebody else in a completely different situation at a completely different time for a completely different request.
The Hidden Cost Of Avoidance
SPEAKER_00
I think that hits the nail on the head. We have that carrying weight of this, and it is so much easier. And I I like that question of like, what's it gonna cost not to say no? If you don't have the conflict, what is it costing you? And that's the question we don't tend to ask because the first thing that's in our mind is all of the emotions that we think are about to happen and that we are now in a state of trying to avoid or trying to manage or trying to get past somehow, trying to avoid the blow up, the bad emotions, the fight, whatever it is that we are avoiding, that is a so much more powerful immediate motivator that it takes a literal moment where you should give yourself a breath so that you can ask exactly that question. What is this gonna cost if I don't have this conflict?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. What will it cost?
SPEAKER_00
And often you'll end up having some more sleepless nights. You'll end up, you know, trying to rearrange 200 kids because your climbing instructor is gone. You'll try whatever the whatever the consequence is, it could be very immediate, it could be much more long term. It can feel like now I can't, I'll have a harder time saying no next time will be another thing that's gonna come up. There's a lot of reasons that that conflict will have a negative consequence that's much larger if if it's avoided.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, one of the things that I've noticed that maybe it's because I'm seeing as somebody that walks comfortably directly into conflict is that there's two things that I've seen happen when that's what it costs me when I avoid it. One is I start losing trust in the avoiding the potential conflict, because again, I don't know if it's gonna be a conflict or not, but I'm avoiding the potential conflict. So I stop losing trust. That is a very difficult thing to rebuild if it's possible at all. I still the debate in my head is still out on whether once trust is lost, it can actually be rebuilt at all. And that's externally. So then the entire dynamic now changes with not only that person, if it's one person or a group, but with anybody else, because now I turn it, you know, like it turns into hypervigilance in every relationship of like, well, if I can't trust this person because of this potential conflict, then maybe the next situation that's somewhat maybe 1% similar could be the same. So maybe I can't trust that person either. A lot of times we bring so much baggage to conflict, to potential conflict and situations that they have even nothing to do with that one person that we're avoiding it or walking around it or doing whatever we're trying to be nice about it. It has something to do with somebody, somebody else in a completely different situation. And so that's the external piece. It's like now I'm walking around by not trusting anything and anyone around me and chipping away that trust, which makes for a pretty tough life if you don't trust people that you can trust and that haven't demonstrated that you cannot trust them. And internally, it's that integrity of values. It's like now internally, it's just kind of like, what am I chipping away at? Because I'm I'm trying to avoid a potential conflict situation. Am I chipping away at my own confidence? Am I chipping away at the way I look at myself? Am I chipping away at what I'm gonna be able to do at the value I want to provide? What am I chipping away at internally? And that's where the sleepless nights come in. That's where the stress comes in, where the anxiety, where the health issues come in. Like it manifests in so many different ways.
SPEAKER_00
I think it's a great way. That makes me think that like we were just talking about how there's there's a lot of emotion that we are worried about and and feel a lot when we're trying to avoid conflicts. But it sounds like you've kind of turned that on its head and you're aware of the flip side, which is if I avoid this, here's the bad feelings. And it's easier to consider I'm gonna avoid those bad feelings rather than trying to avoid the bad feelings of the initial conversation.
SPEAKER_02
Yes. Yeah, we're still avoiding bad feelings.
SPEAKER_00
As long as you can scare yourself more on one side, you can get back to the other.
SPEAKER_02
It it truly is. It's the devil you know it's better than the devil you don't know. Like I know how to let myself down, but do I want to risk letting somebody else's down by saying no?
SPEAKER_00
No, that's an interesting one. And I do think there is some power to that idea of like understanding the power of the demon that will arrive on the other side. I I always joke about how I clean my house a lot more right before I have to get some writing done. And it really is because like getting the table cleared off right now doesn't seem that important right up until I need to sit at a blank page and write a paragraph. And I'm like, you know what, that table really has to be taken care of. Like now I'm gonna go avoid that other feeling a little harder, and it's gonna drive me to clean it off, whatever that is. So I think something wise, if kind of funny, and a little bit wry about the idea that like if you can just scare yourself more about avoiding conflict, you're gonna find it a lot easier to step into conflict.
SPEAKER_02
I think I might have heard it in a podcast. It's actually a very clear human condition is that we spend most of our energy trying to avoid the worst feeling. Most of our lives is spent avoiding bad feelings, and so we're constantly calibrating which is the worst one that I don't want to feel.
SPEAKER_00
This is so tragically and easily anecdotally true. This is one of those moments where you remind yourself that we're all humans, and that sometimes comes with some some disappointing findings.
SPEAKER_02
I can't remember where it was, where I heard it or read it, but it was definitely backed by data, so it wasn't just made up by me. Even though, you know, even if it's been made up by me, if it resonates, take it.
SPEAKER_00
Somebody go find that study and send it to us. But also, it just anecdotally feels very true. And I can definitely relate to you like uh of these two options. It's like you know, that that old saying, like, if I have to eat two frogs, I'm gonna eat the bigger one first. And that is that's a good way of like approaching things, but our minds are set to be like, oh God, it's gonna be horrible to eat a frog. Let's just get rid of the smaller one because it sounds even worse to eat the bigger one, and then you got a big one facing you, and you're like, oh, it's gonna be even worse. So there is something to be said for turning that on its head, but it is going to take a good amount of intentional effort. And it's okay for that to give yourself some grace if you're gonna go step into that, if you're gonna go jump into that intentional effort. It's not gonna be easy, it's not gonna happen right the first way off. It'll just be how it is, and that's that's okay. Give yourself a little space to try something and turn this on its head and create more negative feelings in one direction so that you can push yourself to the thing you know you should be doing.
SPEAKER_02
It's
Build A Stronger Conflict Muscle
SPEAKER_02
interesting though, because it is a muscle. And the more you exercise, the easier it gets. It's still not gonna be easy. It's like somebody running marathons. You're not gonna run a marathon eventually if you keep running marathons and say, like, oh, you know, I've been sweating this one. It was so easy. It's like, I'll just keep running. I did the 26 miles. It's like, why stop now? Not that it's actually gonna feel easier, but it does feel easier at the same time. Running marathons, and when you've been running marathons, it gets easier and easier and easier. You know how to train, you know what to expect. All of those things are still part of it. It's still gonna be physically difficult. You're still gonna struggle with like, oh yeah, my ankle now hurts and and this and now it's too hot and all these, all those other things, but it does get easier, more familiar, more comfortable. You're willing to actually go through it because you know what's on the other side of what could potentially be on the other side. And so when it comes to conflict, part of the muscle is not only to just keep doing it, you know, I keep saying no. Get get used to saying no, get used to having that hard conversation, get used to reaching out and asking for help, whatever whatever you're thinking that could end up into a conflict that you're avoiding, or you go in with a fight, try to not go in with a fight. Like do whatever the opposite of the default is, and then also start creating this like data bucket of all the times where it didn't end up the way you thought it was gonna end up.
SPEAKER_00
We are built on a lot of our past experiences. The thing is, the same way you can weight some experiences over others, we tend to, by default, wait the negative experiences more. So you could have had like four and good outcome conflict conversations and one that went negatively. And you're gonna probably carry that one more easily if you don't take that time to put that bank down and say, hey, what are the good interactions I've had? What could be done better? What can we change about this? And what what might this look like in not the worst case scenario? Not just the one that I'm afraid of, but what's the benefit of this? And that's one thing we talk about a lot when we're doing leadership classes is that conflict is an opportunity for that. We have an opportunity to change something to have a better future because we have had this conversation that is otherwise painful and a little bit scary to step into.
SPEAKER_02
It is, yes.
Turning Conflict Into Opportunity
SPEAKER_02
We actually just recorded, uh, that's why conflict was in on our mind. We just recorded upcoming masterclass on conflict. And so we talk about that backpack of like, what are we bringing? What can we let go of before we walk into a potentially conflicting conversation? And what are some tools into coming into this conversation in a different way than we have in the past?
SPEAKER_00
Our past experiences aren't just the ones that weigh heavily on us. Our past experiences are all the good ones that happen too. And so it's hard, it can be harder to remember as as we just talked about the ping-ponging of avoiding the bad feelings. It can be hard to index on those better interactions, but that doesn't mean they're not there. They are part of the backpack. We just have to remember to take them out.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, take them out, look at them, decide like, am I bringing this or not? We're gonna bring the backpack.
SPEAKER_00
So please join if you would like to dive deeper into this and to get some strategies on how to deal with conflict. You can join our masterclass. It's available online at self paced, self taught at turning conflict into opportunity. So we'll post the link to that in the show notes, but please go step into some conflicts and figure out figure out how to avoid the most negative feeling and set up the most negative feelings so you have the most positive outcome.
SPEAKER_02
The good thing about the master class is it does include one hour coaching session with either Alex or I. So then you get to kind of talk to us about what situations you're going through and unpack your conflict backpack even more.
SPEAKER_00
Get right into your own personal blocks. That's where we all we all have our own personal blocks. We can sometimes identify with how other people are are interacting with conflict, but ultimately how we interact is incredibly specific to us. And it can be very helpful to kind of have a moment to actually unpack your personal backpack, not just what could generically be in there.
How To Reach The Hosts
SPEAKER_02
Well thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_00
Thanks for listening. Thanks so much for listening to Uncover the Human. We are Ciamo that is the company that sponsors and created this podcast. And if you would like to reach out to us further reach out with any questions or to be on the podcast please reach out to podcast at wearciamo.com or you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is we are Ciamo S-I-A-M-O. Or you can go to weareciamo.com and check us out there. Or I suppose Christina you and I have LinkedIn as well. People could find us anyway.
SPEAKER_01
We do have LinkedIn. Yes. Yeah. And we'd like to thank Ebbie Robison for producing our podcast and making sure that they actually reach all of you and Rachel Sherwood for the wonderful score.
SPEAKER_00
Thank you guys so much for listening. Tune in next